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You don’t seem to know much about German education. Most public schools are fine, as good or better than private ones which will cost an extra 12 to 15 thousand euros per year. But schools are separated into Gymnasium which is the strongest  academically and the level needed to complete to go to German universities. Getting the Abitur upon completion is a higher level than US High School. And German universities are as good as American ones – but tuition  free. Not sure what the benefit of an American university would be unless one attends an Ivy League one and hopes to make it to an exclusive professional and job in America where that specifically matters.

So the first question would be what kind of school is he in; gymnasium or another type? But it’s ludicrous to claim kids don’t have to read books in German schools; simply untrue. But that he is not getting particular high grades shows his effort is not high by the local standards, not that the standards are low. If that were true then he might manage good grades despite mediocre abilities. So either he is not academically talented or is not motivated by the things he is learning. That his cousins get good grades is rather irrelevant. Sounds like an obsession about appearance rather than an acknowledgment of who he really is and what he might want to do with his life.

This is actually one of the things Germany’s system is good at. Instead of sending everyone to high school and then have the poor performing kids come out and not make it to university and not offer them good alternative vocational trainings options, Germany gives plenty of opportunities. There are many things offered outside of university and such jobs can pay well and are not looked down on like in the US. One is not just a loser here because they might not have gone to university.

Sounds like the kids has yet to find his niche. He might need vocational counseling but this doesn’t mean he is being raise poorly. Sound more like you have questionable expectations and are trying to find a scapegoat.

Of course, without knowing the exact situation, I cannot comment on your son's abilities and his mother's activities towards it.
But I would like to add to Tom's good post above that in cases of joint custody both parents (i.e. you and the mother) have to find consent in all major decisions, which includes which school to choose for the kid. So I guess you did agree to the current situation - or she has sole custody, in which case you have no say and should not interfere.
Also, you seem to have a misconception about private schools in Germany: Unlike the USA, they are NOT generally better than the public ones:
There are a few (very expensive) elite boarding schools (which are meant for the very rich and famous) and international schools following a foreign system (useful for kids that return to their home country after just a few years in Germany) and those with alternative educational concepts (not usually geared towards highest achievements but increased happiness, like Waldorf schools). Most other private schools here, however, are geared towards lucratively teaching wealthy but stupid kids, who could not make it in normal public schools. Not where I want to see my children!
Also, the German "Abitur" (high school certificate) allows (with very few exceptions) entering any university and studying any subject. Also the various types of secondary school are laterally changeable if the kid shows potential. The system here is purposely built to give chances to lower achievers who improve later on.
As Tom wrote above, your son's situation is almost certainly a question of his motivation to excel, not the system. You could (preferably together with the mother) approach the local "Schulamt": They offer programmes to improve underachievers. This is better than a change of school, which could be disruptive to his social life and well being and might therefore achieve the opposite.

Thank you all for the comments. A lot to unpack here. I will start by clarifying to stay on topic, I was referring to the potentiality of my son going to the university in the US. I'm not doubting the quality of German universities. But that's a different topic. I also did not know that the private schools in Germany were considered equal to public in quality, so let's put that to the side. 

Also, I am assuming the responses here are from Germans. And you will have an entirely different interpretation on the subject than an American expat would. Americans understand the education system in the US and the competitive standards of admission, which is the theme here.

I will also absolutely admit I know little about the German education system. There is a lot of general information online, speaking highly of the quality, which I do not contest. But what they are doing in his class specifically, I really only hear it from him. And it doesn't sound very challenging relative to kids I know here.

He is in a Gymnasium. Upper middle class town on the Elbchaussee of Hamburg. They are not reading much. Compared to the level and number of books read at 10th grade in schools in the US, they are simply not reading at all. He has read one book in German this year in his class. So please explain that. My nephew two years younger has read stacks of classics, and this is and important factor in our education system here.

Are standards of admission competitive in Germany? I know everything is free (again, not the point), but do they just let everyone in? Is that why there seems to be such little emphasis on achievement and standards?

To reiterate my point, based on admission standards to university in the US, he will simply not be able to compete. And I am concerned. His school in Hamburg offers no extracurricular activities.

I have tried numerous times to discuss his academics with his mother, and she simply doesn't seem to care. She thinks because he is a nice boy, he will be fine. He will not compete in the world being nice. That's a personal issue, but part of the frustration.

American universities look for high grades obviously, and extracurricular activities and other achievements that demonstrate effort and initiative. The high schools here offer so, so much more than his high school in Hamburg. At a decent public school here, if you can dream it up, the school will make that opportunity happen. From what I can tell, his school in Hamburg offers little to nothing by these markers. He would never be admitted to any decent school in the US with four years of Cs and nothing more.

This is an expat forum correct? Are there any Americans in the group who can offer a perspective? The Germans make valid points, but I'd love to hear from other Americans who might be in a similar situation. Thanks again.

I see three misconceptions here:
- Tom is an American expat in Germany, MetelloS is an Australian/Italian who lived in various countries and I am German, lived 15 years abroad (mostly Asia) with kids being half-German and trilingual.
- Schools here do not offer extracurricular activities like in the USA. These do take place in the many external clubs and organisations for sports, music, culture, adventure and almost anything else you can imagine. If your son does not participate in any, that is indeed bad - but has nothing to do with his school achievements.
- It does not matter where your son's school is ("upper middle class town"), as public schools here are purposely kept on the same level (in order to give all kids the same chances). There are no good and bad public schools as you have in the USA.
The same is true (to a slightly lower degree) for universities: There are not many world-top-ranked universities here (like Stanford or Harvard), but also no shitty small-town colleges (as many of the ones in the USA are) - from the quality of teaching standpoint, it matters little where you study, and standards are generally high (by international comparison).
As an example: I graduated (many years ago) with slightly above average results from a German university (after being below average at high school) and was considering doing an MBA in the USA (I eventually decided against it). The GMAT test I took had a score of 760 (out of 800), among the top 1% of test results that year - without much preparation or effort. Obviously, my education had prepared me well.

Despite the still unanswered question of whether you have a say in your son's education (see "custody" above), you should definitely learn a lot more about our system before you judge it or propose how your son should manage. And even then, for a German kid in a German school, please use German measures.

Ok thanks for the comments. Some of that I already know - activities take place more in external clubs. This is possibly more in the direction of questioning his mother's parenting. In fact we just had a disagreement about all this today.

Not to get too personal, but her position is that she simply does not think a university education is important. She is completely hands off. She encourages or promotes nothing in helping him excel. He will figure it out and get by because he is a) a nice boy b) kind and, get this... c) attractive. So this is what I am dealing with.

I do understand that in Germany it is socially acceptable to have blue collar jobs or average lower level employment, or however you want to call it. In fact I remember a bus ride I took in Hamburg once, the driver was a nice cheerful young guy with good english of course, and he was driving a bus between college years or something. Or some other in between life situation. I thought that was refreshing, and fine. So, I get that part of it.

But my son's mother is taking this to the point of negligence. I can't talk any sense in to her. She does see any need to emphasize more effort and activities and better grades. She simply does not care. He will find his way and just whatever he wants to do and whatever, it's fine. It is the complete antithesis of the American attitude towards education. Her logic is off, her defenses are wrong, her arguments are incomprehensible. It's extremely frustrating.

She does not see her role as the champion of providing resources and opportunities for him to learn and grow. Our JOB as parents is to expose our children to the best opportunities we can. To set them up with the foundation of a prosperous and rich life. She seems to feel the opposite. Like he's a wild animal who will just figure it out. This is what I am dealing with. I cannot convince her otherwise, and she won't even discuss it.

Her plays tennis once a week, he's in the choir, and he's sets up a children's play time activity once a week. And of course he's on a soccer team, which is basically by default anywhere outside the US lol.

I don't know what else to say about it. I can't get through to her. He will pay for her poor parenting,  that's really where it will go.

Now, he may end up fine, we don't know. He may want to go to a university and he does and finds a career he likes and it all works out. Who knows. But in the academic foundation leading up to that possibility, I'm extremely anxious for whatever possible direction he might go.

Dude. Once again, I have to repeat this. My original question was the potential that he goes to a school in the US eventually. Not sure why learning more about the German system matters. I know what he does in school. Not every minute, but the measured metrics for applying to a university are evident.

A German high school kid going into a German university is NOT THIS TOPIC.

As far as custody, also not relevant. But, she has custody. He lives with her. 8000 miles away. The international component makes everything beyond complicated. I have no way to keep on top of his day to day educational activities, his available resources, etc.

So it turns out you have not so much a problem with schooling, but an opinion conflict with the mother about education in general. For such matters a different authority, the "Jugendamt" is in charge here (and does offer very good solutions).
In addition, you say you have no custody. So, in legal terms, your opinion does not matter at all. The only thing you can do is convincing your son (and/or the mother) to consider your point of view (which, as you have encountered, does look strange and in parts irrelevant to him, her and us). If that does not work, I am sorry to say, there is nothing you can (and should) do.
In addition: With tennis, soccer, play group and choir, he seems to have quite a lot of good extracurricular activities. No need to worry here! (Your issue with reading cannot be verified by us, but seems out of line with our experience of schools here.)
As for how well the German education system prepares somebody for a USA university admission, look at my post again. I personally believe it is better than the average USA high school (although the variability is certainly far greater there).
What if he decides, in the end, that a familiar system in his language suits him better for his studies than a foreign and potentially frightening place? That would be his decision which you must accept. He is, at probably around 16 years old, soon an adult looking for his own path - it won't be your path and might not be the optimum he could achieve, but it is his life and only his.

Here I have a stepson who went through Gymnasium and university but I’m an American expat and know both systems. I did my schooling through university in the States. And like Beppi mentioned, extracurricular activities aren’t considered in Germany. They look at academic achievements alone. And Gymnasium is the equivalent of an honors program at most American high schools. In fact, Americans usually have to either do 2 years of University before getting accepted to German universities or to do a remedial program called Studienkollege to get them up to par.

And one needs to correctly state that university here is tuition free, not completely free as there are other fees. But cost doesn’t correlate with quality. For many competitive fields like medicine one will need nearly perfect grades. For others, one with a bit mediocre grades might manage to get accepted but they will have to keep up with the program and finishing with bad grades can hurt their chance of a good job. It’s not like there are no standards or consequences. True that really bad grades at Gymnasium might hurt his chances to study in the US but I still don’t see the advantage of paying lots of tuition for something he can get cheaper here.

I agree that getting bad grades should be a concern but not an obsession. Maybe he simply doesn’t fit at Gymnasium and would be better off in another direction that inspires him. The reality is that a university degree just for the sake of having one is not really worthwhile. If one is needed to pursue the career one really wants then its fine. But so are many other options. You state that a German kid getting into a German university is not the issue. But it should be since its the more likely scenario. Why the obsession of American universities? The biggest difference is that the university parties tend to be more excessive and common in the States.

chris6535 wrote:

Thank you all for the comments. A lot to unpack here. I will start by clarifying to stay on topic, I was referring to the potentiality of my son going to the university in the US. I'm not doubting the quality of German universities. But that's a different topic. I also did not know that the private schools in Germany were considered equal to public in quality, so let's put that to the side. 

Also, I am assuming the responses here are from Germans. And you will have an entirely different interpretation on the subject than an American expat would. Americans understand the education system in the US and the competitive standards of admission, which is the theme here.

I will also absolutely admit I know little about the German education system. There is a lot of general information online, speaking highly of the quality, which I do not contest. But what they are doing in his class specifically, I really only hear it from him. And it doesn't sound very challenging relative to kids I know here.

He is in a Gymnasium. Upper middle class town on the Elbchaussee of Hamburg. They are not reading much. Compared to the level and number of books read at 10th grade in schools in the US, they are simply not reading at all. He has read one book in German this year in his class. So please explain that. My nephew two years younger has read stacks of classics, and this is and important factor in our education system here.

Are standards of admission competitive in Germany? I know everything is free (again, not the point), but do they just let everyone in? Is that why there seems to be such little emphasis on achievement and standards?

To reiterate my point, based on admission standards to university in the US, he will simply not be able to compete. And I am concerned. His school in Hamburg offers no extracurricular activities.

I have tried numerous times to discuss his academics with his mother, and she simply doesn't seem to care. She thinks because he is a nice boy, he will be fine. He will not compete in the world being nice. That's a personal issue, but part of the frustration.

American universities look for high grades obviously, and extracurricular activities and other achievements that demonstrate effort and initiative. The high schools here offer so, so much more than his high school in Hamburg. At a decent public school here, if you can dream it up, the school will make that opportunity happen. From what I can tell, his school in Hamburg offers little to nothing by these markers. He would never be admitted to any decent school in the US with four years of Cs and nothing more.

This is an expat forum correct? Are there any Americans in the group who can offer a perspective? The Germans make valid points, but I'd love to hear from other Americans who might be in a similar situation. Thanks again.

As somebody who has attended both a German Gymnasium and a (private) US high school, I can relate the following experience:

I was 'good average' in my class in Germany. At my private US high school, I immediately made the honor roll, even though I was struggling with getting truly fluent in the language at first.

I studied less and with a lot more memorizing and a lot less learning how a concept works, then applying that concept to a range of situations/problems. I had never seen multiple choice or true/false questions in a test or exam before going to school in America.

I also took part in a regional program partnering with a local public high school and attended class there for a couple of days - the next culture shock hit me. Tests were all multiple choice on machine-readable paper and the teachers would go through every single question before the test. I took those tests and quizzes for the fun of it and got all A's without ever attending the classes.

I graduated as one of the ten best students in my class in the US and when I moved back to Germany I had my high school diploma evaluated by the relevant authority in Berlin, which found it academically below the level of a German 10th grade school leaving certificate.

Depending on the degree program in Germany, there is a 'numerus clausus', which means one either needs a certain grade average or a certain amount of waiting time after graduating from high school to even be considered for enrollment. My daughter wants to study IT and in Berlin the numerus clausus for that tends to be around 1-1.5 (1=best), similar to a 4.0 GPA or just slightly less. But that's Berlin and university in Berlin is extremely competitive. One won't get into a psychology degree program at the Freie Universität without a 1.0 or at least 9 semesters on the wait list.

The idea that the mother is negligent not to push a child towards going to university shows an incredible bias. I wonder if the OP has heard of Waldorf schools where the basic concept is to let kids go at their own pace. I don’t agree with all of their theories but can say that I have known multiple people who went to them. My stepson spent his first 6 years or so in a Waldorf school in a small town. When we moved to Stuttgart he switched to a Gymnasium. The attitude was one of concern by the school officials if he would keep up academically. He turned out to be one of the top in his class and his mathematics teacher said he saw such natural ability maybe every 20 years.

But again, what is the solution to a pupil getting mediocre grades? Is it a lack of pushing the importance of education? Not likely. It’s more likely that the child is not seeing the value of the path they are on at Gymnasium. Maybe finding a specific career they would enjoy would improve their focus be it one that requires a university degree or not. Pulling through inspiration will likely do much more than pushing.

Sorry - another answer by a German person. We lived in NY for three years and our kids went to the American school - yes, I can partially compare both systems.

The life of your son sounds like a good mix of both worlds. In my opinion, most of your concerns are related to the fundamentally different educational systems in the two countries. Here some examples:

"they don't even READ BOOKs"

During our time in NY, I remember that my kids got a list of books every school year and had to read a certain amount from this list for their Englisch class. Depending on the grade, they even had to do a short presentation.

According to the Hamburg curriculum for German in the middle school, the German lessons make a contribution to humanistic and democratic value education. Students
- learn how to productively design their own texts and media products
- promotes interest in reading and deepens reading skills through precise text work
- imparts basic knowledge about literature, especially about its genres and epochs
- focus on the consolidation and intensification of the writing ability
- learn basic knowledge about the structures and functions as well as the stylistic devices of the German language.
They not only read novels, but also deal with poetry or non-fiction. It is not only about the amount of books.

they are going into advanced AP honors classes:

Your son cannot attend AP honors classes in Hamburg as we do not have this system.

Are standards of admission competitive in Germany?: You need to have good grades and a certain average after elementary to get accepted at a gymnasium (high school). Otherwise you have to attend a Realschule (secondary school), which will end after grade 10 and won't give you the direct access to universities.

In school your son seems to behave like a typical German teenager - everything else is more important than school.  I have two boys and a girl (all studying meanwhile) and I really know this "problem". Don't panic and give him the time he needs! During the last two/three school years (depending on G8 or G9) they can specialize a bit more, they get a bit more mature and start focussing on the grades. Believe me, he will make it! Our oldest just passed school with a C+ (2,8), failed in his first semester, finished his bachelor with average and at the end made his master at the prestigious CEU University  (American system) with high honor (including a scholarship). Now he applies for a PhD position!

"He plays tennis once a week, he's in the choir, and he's sets up a children's play time activity once a week. And of course he's on a soccer team, which is basically by default anywhere outside the US lol."
:

From my "German" point of view, outside the school your son behaves more like an American teenager and does more than a lot of other German teenagers in his age. He is doing sports (even two different - tennis and soccer!), he is interested in music (choir) and he shows social commitment, which is much more than the average. But that doesn't seem to be enough for you, which makes somehow sense as you look at it from the perspective of the American education system.

I can tell you from experience he will have extremely limited options gaining admission to a good university with a portfolio of Cs.

Due to the completely different system of being accepted at a public university in Europe we do not need to be extremely good in sports or do not have to show the same high level of social commitment (although I really like that aspect). Depending on the country where you want to study, you have e.g. access restrictions based on grades or you can easily sign up with your high school diploma and then have to prove in the first two semesters that you can reach a certain number of credits. The fee is nothing compared to the US, which means we don not have to be extremely good in extracurricular achievements to get a scholarship. This might explain why, from your point of view, your son is performing at this "poor" level.

Regardless of all the discussions about your son (or should I rather say your ex-wife?) - have you ever talked to him about his ideas and desires? Does he want to study in the USA? Does he even want to study at all?

Maybe your son would rather do vocational training after school? Unfortunately there is nothing comparable in the US, maybe it can be explained like this: Usually you have to attend a three year educational system. A certain amount of time you have to study different subjects (connected to your profession) at a professional school, comparable to community colleges. The rest of the time you are working at the company which hired you, to learn the practical part of your profession. And you will be already paid. After three years you will have to pass the journeyman's examination. After that you can in addition attend a master school for another one - three years, depending on the branch. You are only allowed to train apprentices if you have a master degree (has nothing to do with a master from university) and in some branches you would even need the master to found your own company. You often earn more than someone with a bachelor's degree!

Talk to your son, listen to him, trust him and support him in finding HIS way in life.

@ALKB

When you say you had a diploma from a US high school, was this the private school or the public school you attended for a couple of days a week? How did the authority in Germany evaluate your diploma? In other words, what criteria did they use, like a copy of the syllabus for each class, coursework, etc.?

@ALKB
When you say you had a diploma from a US high school, was this the private school or the public school you attended for a couple of days a week? How did the authority in Germany evaluate your diploma? In other words, what criteria did they use, like a copy of the syllabus for each class, coursework, etc.?
-@vr518

The high school diploma was from the private school, which had a stricter grading system and what I perceived as a higher academic level than the public school.

I only attended the public high school for three days in total, not several days a week as an ongoing program. It was some sort of cultural enrichment thing offered by that public school for a single week in the school year. Foreign (exchange) students from all over the world who were attending schools in the same area were hosted by the school for a week. Three days of classes that meant shadowing our hosts at the school but also included visiting language classes and giving presentations about our home country, then we all went on a trip to Niagara Falls together after those few days at the host school.

The documents I had to submit were the diploma, the mark sheet, forms, and copies of my ID.

This does not seem to have changed:

I think part of the problem was, that in the US, the schedule is the same every day, so 8-9 subjects in total, if I remember correctly, while in Germany, it´s more like 16 subjects. Some of those are only taught once or twice a week, nevertheless, they are compulsory.